I love how Kleon holds his feelings — gratitude and frustration — in tension. He knows he’s in a privileged spot, being able to do the work that he does, but he’s frustrated by how hard it’s been to do anyways. And if it’s hard for him, someone who does it for a living, it’s unimaginably hard for someone trying to do it in the margins.
My favorite piece about the interview is his boatload of recommendations about articles, books, and movies:
Finally, have you read, watched, or listened to anything amazing lately that you can recommend?
Some books I’ve loved this year: Sam Anderson’s Boom Town, E.H. Gombrich’s A Little History of the World, Olga Tokarczuk’s Drive Your Plow Over The Bones of the Dead, Stewart Brand’s How Buildings Learn, Martin Gardner’s The Annotated Alice, Shirley Jackson’s Life Among The Savages, Tom Hodgkinson’s How To Be Idle, Mary Ruefle’s Dunce and My Private Property (I love her; I hope she’s doing well because she’s my quarantine saint), old Ray Bradbury short stories, Kenko and Chomei’s Essays in Idleness and Hojoki, Erno Rubik’s Cubed, Stefan Zweig’s The World of Yesterday, and Isabel Wilkerson’s Caste, which deserves every bit of praise it’s getting.
Movies and TV I’ve binged: Portrait of a Lady on Fire, Parasite, Sex Education, Dolemite is my Name!, Teenage Bounty Hunters, Better Things, Kind Hearts and Coronets, Master and Commander, My Octopus Teacher, Ted Lasso, The Crown, Spongebob Squarepants, Toast of London, Curb Your Enthusiasm reruns, and How To With John Wilson. I also recommend re-watching your favorite movies in black and white. I’ve recently enjoyed Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Jaws, and Nacho Libre.
Albums and songs on repeat: Fiona Apple, Fetch The Bolt Cutters; Perfume Genius, Set My Heart on Fire Immediately; Deerhoof, Love Lore; Cardi B, “WAP”; Sturgill Simpson, “Make Art Not Friends”; the new Dylan album, which has no right to be so good; Cocteau Twins, Heaven or Las Vegas; Emahoy Tsegué-Maryam Guèbrou, Ethiopiques 21; The Durutti Column, LC; Gary Numan, The Pleasure Principle; and Yaz, Upstairs at Eric’s. Favorite writing music: Yasuaki Shimizu’s Kakashi; Aphex Twin; Barker’s Utility; and the Uncut Gems soun
The best interviews spin you out to other things beyond the person being interviewed — and this interview did just that. Mason regularly interviews lots of interesting folks; definitely worth subscribing.